On the Centri Sociali: Interview With Roberto Ciccarelli*
Interviewed and Translated by ENDA BROPHY
What in your opinion motivates people to set social centres up? How do they see their activities in relation to states, corporations?
When I participated in an occupation in 1994, the project was to find a
space for a different kind of sociality in a provincial city that was
difficult to live in, rigidly divided as it was between the bourgeois
city centre and the illegality - occasionally violent and
mafia-inspired - of large parts of the periphery. This space
of alternate sociality, at least at the time, was intended not only as
a space of aggregation for those excluded from these dominant
formations, but for the exploration, even tendentially, of a social
experiment that could cut across highly different and complex classes
and social subjectivities, a living laboratory of styles of
communication, counter-information, and local politics, with the
closest possible links to the university and the world of new
metropolitan intellectuality.
In Italy, the “institutions” of the state and
capital are not so homogenous - at least with respect to the question
asked, they are highly differentiated between themselves, and rarely
can one speak of fields that are coextensive. Certainly it
was this way in the past, when it was the movement that counter-posed
itself to the state. Yet it was a different movement back then, that
had much different theoretical roots and objectives that no one in
Italy is re-proposing today. In the South, too, the
relationship between capital and the state remains to be
analyzed. From my position, the institutions were taken a bit
by surprise - between 1993 and 1997, there was an incredible flowering
of occupations and self-organization. Never in my city had such a thing
been experienced.
There was formed a relationship of solidarity with the parties of the
left (Partito di Rifondazione Comunista and the Verdi, with whom
subsequently there were enacted some specific short term political
alliances). The press took note of what was happening, and the movement
was able to use it (many of those involved in the occupation had
developed media experience since the times of the
“pantera” student movement in late 1989 and
1990). I cannot deny however, at least as far as my memories
of it go, the politically marginal nature of this aggregation, which
only with great difficulty found cohesion between the different groups,
beyond the urgent problems generated by the pursuit of economic
survival and of the organization of structures which impeded a
longer-term development of the project.
Would you like to see the social centre become a generalized social practice or is this a form of struggle for certain groups at certain places and times?
It’s certainly a project enacted by at a group level,
deriving from an analysis of a situation that is determined and
circumscribed temporally, and that depends on the experience, the
political imaginary and the history of the group itself. I would add
that occupying a social centre and, above all, defending it,
necessitates a capacity for permanent mobilization. This
means that a certain military force for self-defense against violent
evictions, assaults by organized crime in the neighbourhood, or from
the fascists, is required. There is, therefore, the need for
a steward’s organization [servizio d’ordine] of
some kind, and this cannot be conjured up in a matter of days. This can
happen in a situation where there are the right prerequisites for
maintaining control of the territory, knowing how to behave in certain
situations, and creating a protective barrier: knowledge of the
neighborhood, the people, the histories, the adversaries.
Militants are threatened daily in cities. The struggle is one
of individual physical survival before that of the social centre.
It is because of this that I say that a steward’s
organization is not something that can be conjured up in a day
– groups in the South, but also in the larger cities in the
centre-north, need time to form themselves in order to confront the
daily war on the street, a street upon which one can easily be lost.
This is one of the reasons for the terribly high mortality rates of the
centri sociali. It isn’t possible to find people
committed to carrying on street warfare for the rest of their lives.
For the historically established centri, which have a more solid base
having already gone through these difficulties and being able to count
on a lasting local presence, it is a different story. But the
experience of the SC as “militant” and
“antifascist”, in other words the one
you’re interested in, has been exhausted. This is
above all for one reason: the “militant” that
animated it is finished. This social role, which was to constitute a
movement external to and antagonistic towards the protected social
swathes of the traditional worker’s movement (in industrial
cities such as Torino or Milan, and in the Veneto and Emilia Romagna
regions), or the Italian Communist Party that was besieged in large
cities like Rome. In other words, the militant that animated
the “movement of ‘77” and remained the
ideal type for the entire social centre experience, even if it was only
an approximation with respect to reality. The “social
worker” does not exist any longer, at least in the version
given by Toni Negri in his interview on operaismo in 1978 and then
reproposed in his Futuro Anteriore book of 1990.
This militant organized the security force in his group,
let’s say he was like Erri De Luca, who in the early
seventies was responsible for the steward’s organizations for
Lotta Continua and is today a very well-known writer. He was
a professional organizer. I will avoid the theory of expropriation, of
the assault on private property, of the occupation of the city, of the
interruption of the city’s circuit of monetary exchange, all
notions that belonged to the theory of the social worker, but which
gave way to the figure of the social centre militant who was
essentially conservative, barricaded within his small, miserable
fortress, obedient to a kind of “neo-tribal”
organization (as described by Primo Moroni, someone who studied the
Italian movements with the acutest of intelligences after having lived
these movements from inside).
The passage from the social worker to the “social
centreite” was a cultural regression therefore, as well as a
political one. It was the fruit of repression, but also of
the fact that the steward’s organizations of the various
groups in the seventies gradually turned into what would become the
armed organizations of the latter half of the decade. This
brought repression onto everyone, even those who hadn’t
chosen armed struggle but who still, along the lines of the social
worker, pursued a strategy of existential, territorial and economic
reappropriation.
But what remains today? What is left after the social centre
“militant” has disappeared? The situation is far
more complex. First of all it must be pointed out that the
function of the centri sociali has mutated radically. Today
the successful ones are integrated into the metropolitan society of the
spectacle. In a certain way they function as a business, the
work carried out inside is like a cooperative that organizes events and
offers them to the public for a certain price in order to finance
themselves but also in order to stay within the market.
Let’s say that work has entered the weak and self-referential
world of the social centres. The problem of Capital (in its
spectacular form) is posed, and for this reason it forces militants to
encounter the harsh reality of post-Fordist labour. Today a militant
cannot be a “professional” organizer because their
own individual biography is disintegrated into discontinuous and
scarcely coordinated segments, just like the work she carries out in
the centro sociale, but also as in the rest of the city (like working
in a club, organizing concerts, etc).
In social centres in Italy today there is the brutal, violent
experience of rapidly enacted, quickly consumed, and on-demand
relationships prefigured and supported by the new labour law. One works
to put on projects, to put on “events”, one senses
the availability of a circuit that offers these, it is all over very
quickly, all that’s needed is to put on a
“night” – the payment is immediate and
then one starts with a tabula rasa once again. Because of this it is
obvious that there is no chance for the militant to perceive oneself as
a political subject, and beyond this there is no way that this kind of
labour (of which, I repeat, the social centre is just one example) can
be condensed into class antagonism, into some kind of action.
This subject can be a receptor, the catalyst of an
“event” such as a demo in support of a
“campaign”, but nothing more
“dense” or “material” than this.
There is a gaping chasm between this form of activism and the social
worker, as there is with the old social centre militant. The new
militant, unlike the old and banal iconography of the social worker
that has been completely devalued, does not pass his time fighting on
the street, keeping capital under attack, but rather seeks an
understanding with local institutions, gives in to a kind of
paleo-capitalist organization. Antagonism becomes a kind of
“wardrobe” to fish from when putting together
“events”, something that is coherent with this new
identity that is integrated with the “scenario” of
the urban spectacle. From this there could potentially emerge
a critique of the society of the spectacle, one that is obviously
critical of post-Fordist labour, of post-Fordist labour law, one that
presents a demand for a social wage. But all of this is a
long ways away.
For this reason I believe that the centro sociale is no longer a form
of struggle to pursue both in itself and for itself. Its function can
be important from the point of view of financing, but politically it is
by this point secondary, it can function only in a network of subjects
that labours in a self-coordinating fashion. It is animated by many
levels, through many different people and activities. In
another context the centro sociale could be absolutely flexible,
volatile, an impermanent organization, and the activity of the movement
would no longer have its center in the “centro
sociale”, which ought to be used only in some cases,
precisely because it is by this point difficult to keep alive, it costs
too much, there is a need for too many people, there is a huge stress
associated with defending it.
In short I’m describing the ideology of the social centre,
marked by the ideology of spontaneity, of the
“libertarian” ideology of the antagonism against
the state so as to live in a world “without the
state”, perhaps even proclaiming a “return to
nature”, a tribal one to be precise, where there are only
nomads that move through the metropolis, armed one against the other,
certainly free of capital (but how?), but obsessed with the need for
survival. The contiguity of this ideology with a certain anarchist
offshoot of liberalism (like that of Robert Nozick) has been noted by
many, but not examined.
I believe it ought to undergo some scrutiny. Spontaneity is certainly
fundamental. The occupation of centri sociali is a
spontaneous gesture of insubordination against the real order of urban
and social metropolitan institutions. Adopting the position of
spontaneity against the state, of the “natural”
model of life against the “statist” one becomes
part of the social centre identity, which occasionally is connected to
technological superfluities (such as no copyright movements, hacking,
etc), and occasionally with tribal or group belongings. The
call to spontaneity finds in virtuality as it does in identity, in the
ideology of telematic immediacy as in the group belonging against the
state, notable kinds of integration. We should be careful
however: the ideology of spontaneity does not necessarily constitute an
anti-state, but rather a society “outside” of the
state. The cultivated spontaneist has French anthropological models or,
something that annoys me, the Deluze and Guattari of A Thousand
Plateaus, etc, as reference points. The spontaneist in the know studies
the Frankfurt School, the protest Marcuse, the use of technology in
order to achieve a union between primary and secondary natures, the
phylogenetic and the ontogenetic, the psychic and the
physical. The “spontaneist” in other
words, wants to live outside and against the state, in a republic of
self-sufficient autonomous communities, likely in the countryside,
outside of the metropolises, but even within them. He lives
his alienation as separation, as identity, a flag to rally around. This
ideology, one that is quite widespread in Italy, connects with quite
sophisticated themes and important philosophers the reception of whom,
in Italy, was in my opinion shamefaced. There has been formed
an editorial market, “currents of thought” that
claim this “sorelo-nietzschiean” legacy of
spontaneism, to be adopted against capital. I don’t
want to be polemical with people I don’t know and whose
intellectual and political path I am not interested in, but only to
point out that the spontaneist “militant” of the
social centre is the incarnation of this ideology of
spontaneism. His maxim is: “everything now and
right away”, which is very similar to another cry
“everything and free.” Surrealism and
fancy. Watch out for that which is claimed to always be easy,
for those who claim that all that is needed exists in nature already,
we just need to take it. To answer your question: the
contingency that sees a group occupy a centro sociale is elevated to
necessity, the constitutive factor of an experience of
“antagonism” which finds in spontaneism and
ideology its culmination.
Do you see the centri sociali as prefiguring alternative ways of life, or is this a transitory form?
Without a doubt, at least in the manner in which we’ve known
them to exist since the nineties, they are a transitory form of
struggle. The way in which one lives in a social centre is,
outside of certain moments of struggle and extremely acute conflict
with institutions and police forces, very difficult, hard, occasionally
merciless, in my view not overly gratifying. I think social centres
have remained in the middle: neither a transitory form of struggle nor
a prefiguring of a new way of living. At least in their
older, “militant” incarnation
they never resolved the question. Today, they are very
different - large businesses that organize events, mass aggregation -
they are managed quite professionally, in a way that is very integrated
with the institutional fabric of citizenship. They function perfectly,
changing the types of commercial offering every season. I go there
often - above all in Rome there are places like the Brancaleone that in
the winter put on quite interesting things, they appear to be more or
less underground places that have aspirations falling between acting as
an artistic vanguard and being a night club. But I think it
is like this in other places in Italy and Europe. I think
that the experience of the centri sociali offered a response to the
crisis that occurred between 1993 and 1994 in the big Italian cities
(let’s say Milan and Rome) - exactly at the point that the
practice was spreading to the south by choosing to become a part, as a
specialized pole therein, of the organization of the integrated society
of the spectacle whilst certainly not resolving any of its
ambiguities. The centri offered some spaces or services to
groups in need of it: information booths, arts groups that
couldn’t find space in the city, but also and above all they
organized self-run businesses, an interesting form of self-organized
entrepreneurship which is deserving of study. It has nothing
to do with an alternative way of life or with the struggle against
capital, I believe. More like a way to create
self-sufficiency for some groups which represent themselves politically
by offering a service to the antagonistic and militant community, that
social strata of marginality and economic exclusion which expands ever
more in the Italian cities, beginning at the end of the
seventies. The nature of this type of service rendered ought
to be discussed more profoundly. Traditionally the centri
sociali have opened themselves to the “social”, to
the neighborhood, offering minor services like information booths for
immigrants or a nursery for children, or Italian lessons for immigrant
workers - services that are by their nature transitory, tied to single
volunteers who perhaps do it as a profession in specialized
cooperatives. The constitutive limit of the centri sociali is
that of an idea of labour that is tied to volunteering, to
self-exploitation, to the fanciful notion of providing total assistance
for subjects who slip through the cracks of public
assistance. A laudable project, but one cannot hide that
there is a worrying double-bind inherent in it: a critique of work and
a revolt against work, a fundamental point of every culture
antagonistic to capital, cannot accept these assumptions, which in
Italy have a precise social connotation. They represent a
sensibility marked by Christian charity of assistance as an act of love
(gratuity is part of the idea of a gift through which there is
communicated the absoluteness of a love that cannot admit from the
interlocutor either trade or exchange), a spirit which animates
realities that are marginal within Italian Catholicism, with most of
the tendency all aimed towards a moderate politics, bent towards the
conservation of the historical bloc which has always dominated Italian
politics as a whole. Appealing to this spirit is perhaps
laudable for well-thinking people, and is certainly laudable on an
ethical level for believers in this idea of love. Those who
instead study and live working over historical materialism, for those
who know a philosopher such as Spinoza, or Nietzsche, not to speak of
Marx, cannot but criticize the humanitarianism underlying the ideology
of volunteering. A critique of the alienation of work, a
critique of capital and of work subsumed under capital, cannot ignore
the fact that this spirit, if elevated to a social rather than
individual level, becomes functional to practices of
exploitation. In this way we observe a grotesque
contradiction of a militant and a social centre that struggle for
liberation of and from work and then voluntarily submit to practices
that lie somewhere between self-exploitation and slavery. The
fundamental contradiction that social centres, at least the
“militant” ones, have fallen prey to, is therefore
the following: the new form of life beyond and against capital is based
on self-exploitation, volunteering, a life that depends absolutely on
money and on all of the circuits of exploitation because it cannot
produce anything if not free assistance as the proof of absolute love.
A few years ago there was a debate on the left around this question, I
remember a book by Marco Revelli, Oltre Il Novecento. I think
it is an exceptional piece of work. The work of militancy,
which Revelli harshly criticizes, just as Georges Bataille does in his
work on sovereignty, considering its birth out of the sacrificial logic
typical of a particular season in international communism, that of
Stalinism, finds regeneration in the volunteer work, in the
“third sector”, in the work of social assistance,
in the feminization of labour. Interesting and useful
practices, but ones that reflect perfectly the contradiction of which I
spoke earlier. Those on the front of the critique and the
struggle against capital must understand that these discourses can only
reveal false consciousness: how can a counter-society be born that is
based on the free provision of care, of love, of the interweaving of
the social that is free of money, but obsessed with daily survival due
to the fact that it is constitutively external to every circuit of
production? The theory of the non-profit sector has been
devastating for the left. Historically, it was formulated
exactly during the period, let’s say between 1996 and 2000,
the years of the “centre-left” government of Romano
Prodi and Massimo D’Alema, in which legislation concerning
“atypical” work was introduced, a very diffuse
practice in America, but one that here has had socially devastating
effects. The most recent figures produced by ISTAT [Istituto
Nazionale di Statistica, the Italian Agency for Social Statistics]
suggest that those who fall under the rubric of
“atypical” workers in Italy are now more than 6
million, that is, more than a third of the Italian working
population! Between 1998 and 2002 six million positions were
created that in reality do not exist – they’re
virtual, they predominantly oscillate between the no longer and the not
yet. And this doesn’t even consider the impact that
Berlusconi’s reform of the labour market will have.
How have the centri sociali positioned themselves with respect to this issue?
What happened was that the debate on a guaranteed income was born (or
reborn if one considers that it has been discussed at least since the
beginning of the nineties). I believe this is a possible exit
route, but let’s get to the heart of the question: how might
this happen? Who can force the Italian political
establishment to protect six million precarious workers with a
guaranteed income? It might seem like a strange question, but
this is exactly the matter at hand. I don’t believe
that the centri sociali have the capacity to pose this question to
themselves, nor do they have the capacity to give themselves an answer
that is executive, political. It is not their history, nor is
it their debate. Even if I look at them with benevolence I
can’t agree with those who would assign to them a
“vanguard” role in the movement. It is
not like that, and from what I can see they would not go far.
In the 1990s the centri did other things, they worked on the battle
over public opinion, on “campaigns” as a certain
kind of imported reformism refers to them now - campaigns against GMO
food or the WTO, or against prohibitionism, or even around
immigration. It is in these activities that they ought to be
assessed. All interesting, but ones that do not even graze the social
composition of the militants in the social centres, who are for the
most part “atypical” workers. This is the
contradiction. It has been discussed for years, but the
reality of the social centres (assuming that one could offer a unitary
image out of a universe that is so ample and one that is transforming
itself so quickly), does not seen to be able to offer ways out of this
contradiction, nor to be able to use it politically. This is
the passage of class struggle, in which the political use of
contradiction was possible in the struggle against Capital, in the
struggle for life. It is clear that the new labouring subject
does not perceive itself as “class”, cannot give
itself stable representation like that of worker’s movement,
banking instead on individualism and egotism, pre-political passions
that are useful for the struggle for survival, essential to resisting
the furious, inflexible, and unending aggression of the politics of the
neoliberal labour market. Is the struggle for life useful to
the struggle against Capital? The former is able to avail itself of
institutional tools for negotiation, mediation, but is it able to do
the same for political clashes? One thing is certain: new
labour is fragmented, and the old (somewhat workerist) idea of locking
it inside social centres (or the chambers of work and non-work, as was
stated in a White Overalls manifesto from a distant 1995) in order to
give it political representation is a demand that is somewhat
ridiculous, fanciful, devoid of a meaningful foundation. The
political use of contradiction, the only way to struggle against
capital, remains far off. Yet it cannot be invoked by
critical knowledge [sapere].
I can say that the social subject that animated the centri sociali,
which at first was the protagonist of the “Pantera”
movement between 1989 and 1990, has transformed itself. I
believe it is an interesting, albeit inconspicuous, subject of social
transformation in general. Our political problem, in Italy, is the
following: this subject refuses forms of political representation,
confronts work and the problematics it offers on an individual level,
and suffers the aggression of neoliberal policy without responding
collectively, but by instead searching for other paths of
resistance. We are used to perceiving politics as
demonstration, contestation, demand, conflict. All of this
seems to me to be distant from this subject, of which I myself am a
part. What happened to this social subject? What happened to
all those people across Italy who occupied universities over ten years
ago? They are cognitive workers, specific intellectuals, social
researchers, cooperative workers. Others, like us, work in
Italian and European universities. We are autonomous workers,
as Sergio Bologna says, we are precarious and atypical workers, we live
at the margins of the organization of the social reproduction of
capital. These workers live an ambivalence: they use social
sciences with a view to counter-subjectivation but they work on
research commissioned by large multinationals. And it is this
way too with those who work in universities, albeit with completely
different labour conditions. And what are the political
capacities this subject possesses? This is a delicate point: From 1990
to 1995-96 there was the great wave of the social centre movement and
many, without fault, described it in terms of continuity with the
Pantera movement. But then what happened? In my
opinion this subject revealed its lack of political preparation and its
cultural insufficiency. It is very difficult to offer
representation for this subject. The idea that some offered
of Genoa as its first mass demonstration is interesting to
me. It’s thanks to Genoa that we can
retrospectively put together an historical and genealogical
reconstruction which goes from the Pantera and passes through the
movements contesting the law. It seems like a shift, and in
fact we are here discussing the birth of new movements. Only
I propose a critique of a political order: As you will remember after
Genoa everybody discussed a “return to the local”
[ritorno al territorio]. I believe this is a useful
expression, almost a Marxian citation, that of putting one’s
feet back on the ground after such a spectacular orgy. The
only problem is this subject rarely attempted this working at the level
of the local, even if this “local,” which really is
the society as a whole, is the place where it is produced and
reproduces itself.
What do I mean by this? Two things: political synthesis in Italy
nowadays occurs outside the politics carried out by parties.
And that these syntheses, where they really occur, are rarely
representative of a more general order of politics. This is an obvious
contradiction and one that marks the political level of an entire
generation. And it is not an easy one to resolve, one that is internal
to the ambivalence discussed earlier where knowledges for the
counter-acting and the counter-formation of political subjectivities
alternative to capital’s order, where they exist, are used
with a certain efficacy in the circuit of the reproduction of social
capital itself. In other words, this is a contradiction which
this emerging movement hasn’t matured the necessary strength
and lucidity to surpass yet. Is this a deficiency in the
project? In political culture? In an idea for the possible
transformation of society? All of this and more.
What is missing for me is an idea of politics, of a form of political
action that is independent of forms of representation, an action in
other words that faces the primary contradiction of the decades of our
historical conjuncture head-on.
How did people in your centro sociale self-identify (ie as marxist, anarchist, feminist, etc.)? How do they see these struggles as related to each other, if at all?
I don’t see any connection between these struggles.
Rather, I would like to know what struggles are engaged in by
“anarchists,” or “feminists,”
or “marxists,” or
“autonomists”. I don’t think
that in a centro sociale one relates to others in this manner. It is
rather personal acquaintances, group histories that furnish the
criteria for an internal dialectic. Nothing to do with the
heroic claim to a political identity which does not exist. In
the centri that I knew there was never posed, to oneself or to others,
the problem of political identity, if anything there was a claim to a
generic “antagonism”. One of the effects of the new
kind of social centres, those of the integrated society of the
spectacle, which I personally see in strategic and political terms
rather than moralistic ones, is that there has been a complete
neutralization of political debate beyond that of physically protecting
the space itself against the threat of an eventual violent eviction (as
always occurs in these experiences). The fetishistic
attachment to the locale, frequently a miserable one, at the margins of
civilization, taken from ancient industrial zones that have been in
disuse for decades, which completely replaces the search for
experimentation, each insertion into new movements (when these exist)
that is not completely opportunistic. This is a grave error, a deeply
grave one. My group, which during those years participated in the
occupations of the university, of the social centre, always defined
itself as operaista or post-operaista. Most of us work in the
university, in schools, in publishing houses, in communication, in
other words we are subjects of the new knowledge economy, that spread
in Italy at the beginning of the nineties, are the first generation of
a kind of labour that in the US has been widespread for
decades. I believe that it is necessary to deepen our
understanding of the relationship between forms of political
organization and the transformations of capital, and the post-operaista
grid, despite the blindness of some of its theoretical points and
despite some of its inadequate and fanciful political proposals, can
allow us to cobble together a debate that is up to this task.
I speak of our internal debate. Our idea was born of the
reflection in the individual biographies of Italian militants which
today testify to the fact that in order to guarantee some kind of
protection to the metropolitan underclass of the excluded, the
precarious, the intermittent workers, in other words all that are
external to the Welfare State and will never be a part of it, there is
a need to expand the confines of political space which at one time was
circumscribed by a centro sociale and condemned to
dissolution. The volatility, the ephemeral nature that this
political subject represents is the theoretical drama we are living and
to which we cannot offer a solution. Many comrades
exalt the mobility of the new labouring subject, its freedom to change
territory, work, profession, and they associate this freedom with the
demand for a guaranteed income so as to be able to live with a baseline
economic foundation. Interesting, but one cannot fail to
recognize that there exists a contradiction, apart from the fact that
the way in which the movement will win a battle over income, one that
is more a perhaps ineffective battle over public opinion, remains to be
demonstrated. […]
References
Guattari, Felix, and Negri, Antonio. (1990 [orig. 1985]). Communists Like Us: New
Spaces of Liberty, New Lines of Alliance. (Trans. by Michael Ryan and Jared Becker). New York: Semiotext(e).
Negri, Antonio. (1988). Revolution Retrieved: Selected Writings on Marx, Keynes,
Capitalist Crisis and New Social Subjects 1967-1983. London: Red Notes, and
Revelli, Marco. (2001). Oltre il Novecento: La politica, le ideologie e le
insidie del lavoro. Torino: Einaudi.
Wright, Steve. (2002). Storming Heaven: Class Composition and Struggle in Italian
Autonomist Marxism. London: Pluto Press.
Endy Brophy (trans.), ‘On the Centri Sociali: Interview with Roberto Ciccarelli’ (Interview). Affinities: A Journal of Radical Theory, Culture and Action, Vol. 1 No. 1, Winter 2007 pp. 21-32. No copyright.
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